Kristin Timmerman, that blogger over at Project Babies, recently decided to share some of her her political decisions on her personal facebook:
No more hesitation. Christ was not ashamed of me while He hung on the cross and died…why should I be ashamed of Him today?Matthew Timmerman and I voted YES to the amendment today. Not because we hate homosexuals, not because we are ignorant rednecks, and not because we didn’t “educate ourselves” on the amendment. When the voting screen asked me if marriage is between one man and one woman, my heart and head both cried out YES! Our Christian faith is explicitly clear on the subjects of marriage and homosexuality (and many other issues). There is no gray area. We believe in loving everyone just as Christ loved us, but we are not interested in rewriting the Bible or His commandments. It doesn’t matter what our opinions are, God gave us rules to live by and when we willfully choose to not follow them, then we deceive ourselves. Your whole life, Christians, is to reflect the truth (yes, the WHOLE truth) found in God’s word. The Bible is inspired, authoritative, and infallible. You believe it ALL or you believe none. As a Christian, marriage is a covenant created by and ordained by God between one man and one woman. Popular or not – this is our vote and we stand by it.
*shrug* k, whatever lady. If you want to make your voting choices with a bible in one hand that’s your call. I mean don’t we all vote partially based on our feelings and beliefs?
I was kind of “eh, whatever” about this until I started reading the comments. A few people disagreed with Kristin and suddenly she declares Christians are being “suppressed”:
….so far I’ve been called close-minded, judgmental, & a hypocrite. Not because I attacked those that voted against amendment one, but because I explained why we voted FOR IT and encouraged other believers to do the same. It’s funny how the other side promotes “choose love” and “rights for all” yet they don’t want to hear anything Bible-believing Christians have to say and attack their belief system. Who is suppressing who?? I surrender all to my Lord. That includes my political beliefs, my marriage, my children, our work, everything. I will be a “fool” for Christ because He was a fool for me.
She cannot be serious with this, right? A white, upper middle class Christian woman who just voted to continue denying basic rights to one of the most maligned groups of humans in America is going to claim she’s being suppressed? If she wants to vote however she wants, fine. But to then put on some defensive butthurt hat and declare:
If people want to make assumptions about me or call me names….I gladly accept it for the cause of Christ. You see, I have taken up my cross on this issue and I am HAPPY to deal with the pushback. Consider it pure joy, my friends.
…what? Hey lady, it’s cool that you like Jesus and stuff, but his cross is crowded. Stop trying to climb up there with him. Saying “too often, people choose what’s popular and easy over what is right” while waving the banner of your own righteousness just crosses into eyeroll territory. You’re not a martyr, Kristin. You’re just another well off married white lady who is turning her vagina into a salad shooter for babies and going to church. You’re about as suppressed as Detective Stabler interviewing a pedophile when nobody’s watching. Get over yourself.
This pretty much sums up what I was going to say, plus it includes John Cleese.
I love you.
I absolutely love that this is the first comment on this thread! Perfection.
Project Babies, on the other hand, total ass hat.
Nailed it in one.
i want to tell kristin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5T0S4Gdef0
sending out the ROFLcopter!
Jesus H. Christ.
Good Lord are people stupid.
I like to think Jesus did a big ol’ facepalm.
I think she does have a right to her opinion, even if I happen to think it’s a wrong one.
It is suppressive to call her down for her way of life, choices and lifestyle. Sounds a little jealous to me.
Because she’s white and well off and has lots of kids, that’s why you object to her stating her reasons for voting yes?
So if she were the direct opposite of that, ie of a skin color other than white, poor as dirt and had no one in her life you’d listen to her opinion?
Seriously???
Freedom is FREE dom, not a power grab by another group so they can rise to a place of superiority.
Get over yourselves a little bit here, okay? There are people who are not homosexual who actually think the same way, that marriage is for procreation. It’s an opinion, belief and incredibly personal and who are you to stomp all over it?
edit: are homosexual not are not homosexual
Exactly. So why is YOUR group power-grabbing another so YOU can feel superior?
Get over yourself a little bit here, okay? There are people who are not heterosexual who actually think that marriage is for two people who love and support each other sharing a life together in a partnership that is recognized by the law. It’s an opinion, a belief, and incredibly personal and who are you to stomp all over it?
Also, plenty of heterosexual marriages are not about “procreation”. We don’t tell straight people who don’t want/can’t have kids that they can’t be married.
And even married couples with kids (and even then, kids might not be the biological offspring of those two married people anyway, AND plenty of LGBT couples DO have children!) would say their marriage is not only about parenting, but about their relationship with each other too.
It’s an opinion, belief and incredibly personal
If it’s so “incredibly personal”, then she is welcome to it. Doesn’t mean it should be the basis of legislation to deny people equal rights, though.
Also, some people have “incredibly personal” opinions and beliefs that are racist, sexist, homophobic and all-round shitty. Just because something is a “belief” doesn’t give the person holding it a free pass, thank you very much.
This^
“Freedom is FREE dom, not a power grab by another group so they can rise to a place of superiority.
Get over yourselves a little bit here, okay? There are people who are not homosexual who actually think the same way, that marriage is for procreation. It’s an opinion, belief and incredibly personal and who are you to stomp all over it?”
–>Exactly…the GLBT population deserves FREE dom also.
–>My husband and I have been married for almost 5 years and haven’t procreated. I guess our marriage isn’t valid? I probably don’t deserve to be married either?
But a government marriage is a legal contract between two consenting adults. It is NOT a religious union, and it’s certainly not a pact to make babies.
girl, what!?
No one gives a single solitary fuck about her being white or that band of assholes she’s raising. What is there to be jealous of? I (not speaking for anyone else) think she’s a close-minded asshat because of her entitled, cunt ways. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
GOD HATES FIGS!!!
Hey, I have lots of friends that are figs! Take that back!
BUT I LOVE FIGS
Then ye shall never achieve grace!
I DON’T WANT TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET ANYMORE
What will happen if we let the figs get married?! Then the figs will destroy the sanctity of not only the institution, but the family unit as we know it! There will be children raised with two figs and this just isn’t right!!
Man, now I really want that fig-and-prosciutto pizza I had last week. Damn you, GOMI.
MACRO PARTY FUCK YEAH.
What?? This can’t be. I love figs as much as my nonna, and I always thought she was a good Catholic. A really hard-core Catholic. This would turn my world upside down…
“It’s funny how the other side promotes “choose love” and “rights for all” yet they don’t want to hear anything Bible-believing Christians have to say and attack their belief system. Who is suppressing who?? I surrender all to my Lord.”
1. You attack their rights. They attack your belief systems which says that denying their rights is ok. They’re not attacking your rights to free speech, to protesting or to posting on your vanity blog about your ideas, or your right to marry your ugly-ass husband. They’re saying they disagree with your opinion. If all you did was say that you disagreed with their opinion, THAT WOULD BE FINE! But you’re not, you’re actively trying to deny them basic human rights by suppressing them with your personal belief system. THAT IS NOT FINE! Just like if a gay activist tried to deny your right to free speech by cutting out your tongue and severing your iPhone-loving bloggy fingers. ALSO NOT FINE!
Beliefs =/= rights. You have the right to express your beliefs, yes, but other people also have the right to criticize them as they see fit.
2. Wait so if you’re surrendering to the Lord because he tells you to, isn’t he suppressing you? I was raised by atheists, I is so confuuuuuzed.
3. Lots of Bible-believing Christains support gay marriage. Not everyone is a self-righteous bigoted thundercunt like you.
Love this post.
I would like to add that there are are whole slew of things in the Old Testament that I’m sure she doesn’t adhere to. For example, “Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.” Or “22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.” OR “23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. ” OR “22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.”
As an agnostic even I know that according to Christian faith when Jesus came, he broke the “chains” of the Old Testament so they don’t have to follow all the list of these commands. Their greatest commandment is to love one another like they love oneself and not to judge lest they be judged.
PS those were just commandments I got from google
To add to your list…
-Marriage is only valid if the woman is a virgin. If not, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)
-Marriage across religions shall be prohibited. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
-Marriage is for life. No state nor federal law shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
So according to that rationalization, we should also pass amendments stating that we should kill women who engage in premarital sex, that a Christian can’t marry outside their religion, and that divorce is against the law. Right?
Marry me. Oh wait…
She probably shouldn’t eat pork or shellfish either, right? I believe I’ve heard that’s in the bible.
She should also sit in a tent during her menstruation and her husband should not sit anywhere she sat during menstruation. If, as she says “You believe it ALL or you believe none.”
I kind of like this idea of sitting in a tent alone whilst you have your period though.
I also very much like the idea of a privacy tent, but I wouldn’t like to be FORCED into one, which is the real issue.
For what it’s worth, I read somewhere of a theory that the “period tent” idea was initiated to help keep collateral damage to a minimum when beasts of prey came sniffing around to find the source of blood. If you have the menstruating women in one place, off separate from everyone else, then the [lion/tiger/bear/oh my] would post less of a threat to the men and children of the camp.
Lots of nuances and underlying messages in an idea like that.
I’ll happily go off to the Period Tent if it’s stocked with a week’s worth of dark chocolate, chocolate sorbet, chocolate gelato, and painkillers/booze.
Gotta do something about the smell and the vicious animals though…
The bears…they smell the menstruation.
Great point. I used to go to church (don’t anymore) and the entire point of Jesus’s life and death was to replace the rules and regulations of the Old Testament. Dude, if even an atheist knows this, how does a Christian not?
Just to bring some theological clarity to the countless arguments like the one above, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus broke the “chains” of the Old Testament. On the contrary, this is what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-18: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
In fairness, this IS a complicated issue even among Christians. Many of the laws laid out in the Old Testament are still applicable to present-day Christians; however some aren’t (civic and ceremonial laws, etc.). These are the laws listed by people trying to disprove the relevancy of the Old Testament. For instance the example you give here: “Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.” But not ALL laws fall under civic or ceremonial.
Christians must still love and obey God’s moral and royal laws, and many Christians believe that laws regarding sex outside of marriage and the definition of marriage are moral laws that still apply. Anyone who’s done any serious study of Christian theology or the Bible and understands some of these more complicated theological issues would be hard-pressed to argue any differently. [Not that this should necessarily be legislated or that Christians should then create laws mandating this.]
In all fairness, MANY Christians themselves aren’t aware of these subtleties, and some spout off one or two Old Testament laws that they think explain why homosexual acts are sinful. This doesn’t paint an accurate picture of why same-sex marriage/sexual intimacy don’t align with Biblical teaching. There’s a lot more to the story (well-documented elsewhere). And of course the same arguments apply to ALL sin, including any sex outside of marriage (so Christians who screw around with their unmarried heterosexual partners while lambasting others in homosexual relationships can—IMHO—be rightfully called complete hypocrites).
And to be clear, I’m not saying that ANY of this is necessarily applicable to how NCers should have voted on the amendment. I’m just trying to clarify some of the arguments being thrown around about the irrelevancy of Old Testament law.
For more info about laws and how various denominations and theological movements interpret Old Testament laws vs. New Testament, etc. see http://www.the-highway.com/law1_Alderson.html or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_law_in_Christianity
The bible doesn’t say sex outside of marriage is a sin. The bible says that ADULTERY is a sin. To be clear. In the days of the early Christians, particularly for couples who didn’t have access to a priest or a rabbi, “marriage” pretty much meant moving in together and consummating the relationship.
The word “homosexual” didn’t appear in the english language bible until well into the 20th century, and there is plenty of scholarly debate out there that suggests that same-sex initmacy wasn’t the problem but that rape and prostitution when it was between the same sex WAS the problem.
My personal opinion is that once the state got involved in the marriage issue – which is a relatively recent development, historically – then secular laws of equal treatment should naturally apply. A legal marriage is not a religious act for everyone, atheists get married and they don’t involve the “church.” If the state, which our constitution establishes as a separate institution from the church, is going to be the body that controls marriages, then all people should be able to get married regardless of their sexual orientation. Period.
I also believe, personally, that anyone who really believes in an omniscient and omnipotent God and who follows the teachings of Christ would understand immediately that being gay could not be and is in NO way sinful. People are born gay. You can’t BE a sin, you can only commit a sin. And if having sex in a committed relationship is the historical precedent for marriage – then having an intimate relationship with someone you truly love and are committed to – is NOT sinful.
But I heard the gay is highly contagious! And that’s why we need to keep gays away from our children!
Good point, there’s nothing necessarily religious about marriage. And for a major part of history (at least the places/eras I studied), it was much more of a financial transaction than some holy ritual.
i love you
THIS! All of this!
As my new fave somecard says, “If you have to make a law that hurts a number of people, just to PROVE your morals or faith, then you have no morals or faith to prove.”
In-group/out-group fuckwittery: YOU CAN’T EXPLAIN THAT.
Child of evangelicals here. Let me disabuse anyone of the notion that these people don’t think beliefs =/= rights. I once had to argue (and eventually give up pointlessly arguing) with my father who told me that his beliefs are facts. That’s right, folks. What you believe is REAL and FACTUAL because YOU BELIEVE IT. So if you believe someone is a God-hating fag? Well that’s your RIGHT, and it isn’t THEIRS to suppress you with!
ZOMG I fucking hate when there’s no rational logic for people. Years later, I’m still dumbfounded by the fact that I both had that argument and essentially lost because I could not make it clear that just believing in something doesn’t make it verifiable and true for everyone, ever. Did I mention my dad has a lesbian sister? Yeaaaaaah.
I think we (and by “we,” I mean anyone who can parse the difference between civil rights and whatever your own personal prejudices may be, because no one is born in a vacuum and we’re all socialized to believe or not-believe any number of things) know that — the problem is that you can’t bring logic to the robot-bear sketch with people like Project Babies. Gay marriage is one of the more relatively straightforward issues, as there’s (1) a good religious case to be made for Jesus not being a homophobe; (2) Biblical literalism is a lot harder to practise than to preach; (3) most people, even those who are less “openly” homophobic, can still accept that “Gay people make me feel weird” is not a legitimate reason to deny a basic right by the government, which is not supposed to be a religious instrument (although that last clause is better left unspoken); and (4) the battle is not over, but I just read a slew of statistics and analysis suggesting that, push come to shove and based on the legalities, the fight over gay marriage is more or less done. Amendments like these will continue to show up to “activate” the base, but Prop 8 passed too. Briefly.
This is a question of “do I want to be the kind of asshole who hates an entire group of people, y/n,” rather than beliefs about when life begins or the causes of abortion or structural inequality. I am pro-choice down to my mystical life-creation chamber of a uterus and/or sluthole, but I know my “beliefs” about when life begins are not “facts” or even relevant to the issue. But that’s LOGIC.
You can’t talk to a zealot like a normal human being. It’s maddening. It’s also why I had my Christian classmates beat the shit out of me, call me “BABYKILLER,” and do all other manner of fun things when I was 11 — because whenever an issue like this would come up, someone would argue God. “I don’t believe in God. I remain unpersuaded. You have to give me an empirical argument. What about cases of rape and incest?” “What’s incest?” “Sexual relations between biologically related parties, usually rape.” “OH MY GOD SHE WANTS TO SLEEP WITH HER DAD. SICKO.”
I have a family member like yours and he gets drunk and … loud … at the holidays. Since his kids openly mock him to his face, it’s sort of become a holiday ritual to ignore him and just laugh. Thank God his county is worthless in the US election system.
“Do I want to be the kind of asshole who hates an entire group of people, y/n.” I’m seriously going to use this next time this shit comes up, related to same-sex marriage or not. It’s a completely valid point, if perhaps a shocking way to put it. But what else is shocking? Hating entire groups of people because of who they love and/or fuck. GOMI, bigots. Also, GOOML. Get out of my life.
“mystical life-creation chamber of a uterus and/or sluthole”
hahahahaha
Yeeeah, one of my mom’s best friends took me out to lunch after my apartment building burned down and expressed her sadness that, had I died in the fire, I would have gone to hell. If that weren’t a lovely enough sentiment, she then went on to say, several times, “Even if you don’t believe it, the Bible is the TRUTH.” And it took every ounce of self-control I had not to remind her that the Bible was written by men. Maybe they were “divinely inspired” but they were still the ones who wrote it and how do we know they were telling the truth?
Believe what you want to believe. I truly feel that way. But do not let your beliefs interfere with another person’s rights. We have a secular government. Even if you don’t agree with it, I’m pretty sure the Bible says you have to love the sinner, not the sin.
what the hell? Wow, way to win souls for Christ crazy lady. What a wretched thing to say.
I, a practicing Christian, apologize to non-believers who have been told they are going to hell as a way to make you consider “joining the team”. It’s a fucked up thing to say to a person no matter what. Please know that this Christian loves you, and I do it cause I believe I have been commanded to love God and all y’all. And there’s the end of it. That’s in the Bible.
and ps, more than the Bible being written by men (because the whole “the BIBLE IS ALL TRUE. ALL OF IT.” contingent will argue that it was God using the men as wee puppets to journal for Him) the Bible was EDITED by men. It’s not even chronological in some parts and not every translation has every verse. DUDE. Let’s not get to crazy about it eh?
My mother actually gets mad at me because I suggest looking at the bible in the context of the time in which it was written. And I say things like “We don’t know if Paul really thought his words were going to be quoted for all time. He might have just thought he was giving advice to friends with very specific problems.” Mom is praying for my heathen soul. (And mind you, I attend church every week and teach Sunday School to the little ones.) She would have probably voted for Amendment One. I would have voted against.
I have nothing to add that hasn’t, I’m sure, already been said more eloquently, but I just wanted to let you know that your post in particular has made my day. I will be shouting “THUNDERCUNTS” at every opportunity from this point forward. When you hear about a crazy woman in Texas who got arrested for repeatedly yelling “THUNDERCUNTS” while waiting in line at the DMV or whatever, feel proud. (c:
maybe like Thundercats theme song–
Thunder Thunder Thunder Thundercunts!!
I am totally using THUNDERCUNTS in my agency. Thank you internets.
“Self-righteous, bigoted thundercunt”
Can I just say you’re fucking awesome :)
I’m so using that line on the next pro-life cumstain who screams “murderer” at some poor woman going into a family planning clinic.
THUNDERCUNT = mean, but actually funny because she’s being self-righteous and bigoted and that gives a green light for inventive name-calling sometimes. self-righteous bigoted = true.
i cannot wait to use this word about the next person that uses a literal, out-of-context ENGLISH translation of the bible to deny human rights.
The WHOLE truth of gods word, mm? Not picking and choosing at all there? Yeah right. Highly recommended listening: current ep of Savage Love Podcast.
I’m a Christian and clearly she has not read the Hebrew of the bible nor has she fully educated herself as to what the resurrection of Christ means for us.
Damned fool.
I am entirely for gay marriage and I have not seen any Bible verse that says otherwise unless it has been incorrectly translated.
People still living by what The Bible says in 2012 shouldn’t be allowed to breed.
I think people voting how some outside source tells them to shouldn’t be allowed to vote. I mean she basically says “I gave this no critical thought, I just voted how the Bible said I should”. Not really the kind of people I want making decisions about personal freedoms for others.
And this is why we REALLY need an aesthetic president.
Ugh. I am a victim of autocorrect. That was supposed to read ATHEIST.
I am so miffed by this topic and your autocorrected post just made me laugh so hard. I think God meant it to be that way.
Actually, the original way was good too! Although the Obamas are pretty easy on the eyes, no??
I’m fairly certain the US has seen atheist presidents, albeit not admitted. Deism was a rules-lawyering patch 200-odd years ago and things have only declined since.
Thomas Jefferson effectively was.
I know you meant atheistic, but I am amongst the numbers that consider our current president smokin’ hot. So while I wouldn’t be averse to an atheistic president I think we can ALL agree that we already GOT an aesthetic one.
AMIRITE?
Yes.
Anyone see him on Kimmel? Skinny leader man is adorbs. That is all.
Amen sister!
Also, skinny adorbs leader man came out in favor of the gays today. MARRIAGE FOR ALL US THUNDERCUNT SINNERS!
I think Obama and Kennedy were the hottest presidents ever. I know someone who got to meet Kennedy and she said it was almost like he glowed or something. Nothing wrong with a hot president, male or (PLEASE GOD ONE DAY BUT NOT PALIN, K) female
Megling, I think one of the reasons the prez is so smokin’ hot is because of that big enormous thing he’s got between his…
…ears.
By my personal standards Sarah Palin is not only not “hot” she doesn’t even register on the meter.
In the world of MrsG you’ve got to have a brain to get noticed.
Hell, yes.
YES! Your president is a babe. Aust. is jealous.
The Bible: most tragic and contradictory game of Chinese Whispers of all time. Causing confusion and bloodshed for over three and a half millenia. Also … a handy life tool for the modern gal about town.
I’m so embarrassed to be living in North Carolina today. If you aren’t going to give your vote critical thought (I mean, if you aren’t *able* to think critically), then don’t vote…and for the love of all things gravy, DON’T BREED!
I’m right there with you. So ashamed to be an NC resident right now.
There will be a reckoning!
Heck (hell). I live in South Carolina. We make youse guys look like Massachusetts :(
I know and as a SC resident, I”m very sad about that.
South Carolina did something very similar a few years ago. Passed a tax referendum to ban gay marriage (and, it turns out, dissolve all common-law marriages too wheeeeee). My in-laws voted for it, and they were SHOCKED to discover it affected people they knew! SHOCKED I tell you!
Sigh. We must keep Obama in the White House long enough to appoint some liberals who will overturn these antiquated laws. It will help the economy too. Big weddings are good for the economy.
People can live however they want, but people who try to force other people to live by what the bible says in 2012 get no love from me.
OT These self-playing video ads that just won’t stop playing are fucking annoying.
Wow.
So brave, so admirable of her to take this step on her priviliged white lady blog. Kristen’s courageous waving of her ‘cross’ is really making Jesus look like a slacker.
I’ve often thought that the rights of straight white Christian people are really getting overlooked in modern America. I mean, who in our current political landscape is really standing up for them? Where are their role models? Thank goodness Kristen is taking this stand, because I tell you, on the “heterosexual Caucasian married middle-class” cross, it’s really just her and Jesus.
It’s true. Standing up for the heterosexual Caucasian Christian marrieds is the new blogging radical act.
so brave.
“I thought about building you a bridge to get over that river of tears you’re crying yourself but the world’s smallest violins just aren’t a reliable source of lumber and that cross you’re nailing yourself to looks pretty buoyant anyway.”
This is brilliant and just so you know, I will be using this line come Christmastime when the sanctimonious, bible-thumping in-laws get started in. Probably somewhere around my second to third glass of wine…
I love when people tell everyone how they voted and then are shocked when people call them out on how they voted.
Anyway, I’m unsure of where I stand with the big G, but I would hope that if God exists, that he loves everyone, regardless of what they do in their bedrooms (except if it involves children or animals or rape, that’s gross and wrong).
Exactly. We have this wonderful thing in this country called secret ballot.
OMFG! All I hope is for these people to have have gay kids. What the fuck are they gonna do? Live and let live motherfuckers.
Dunno guys, I’m living in this bubble called London where marriages are a right, something that that two adults irrespective of sex can do; live happily ever after, have kids and dogs and terrapins, take decision on behalf of their husbands and wives if need be, have affairs, fuck the kids/dogs/terrapins up, go to the marriage counsellors, give it another try, get a fucking divorce, negotiate visitation rights, who get the house, the vintage vinyls and that mid-century commode. Live like the rest of us
I’m still speechless that people vote against equality in 2012.
WTf fuck is wrong with these people? Is it too much inbreeding? Too much high fructose corn syrup?
No, no, I don’t wish gay kids on them. For the kids’ sake.
well if they really are using the Bible as their cut-out-and-keep handy guide to life then they will feel compelled to kill their children.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
My forehead is bruised from banging my head on the desk. Idiots, the lot of them.
and now, i love YOU
it won’t get that far, at some point they will have to stone their kids at the city gate for being disobedient…
Too much dental care, possibly.
All things being equal in the great Transatlantic stereotype derby.
Fair play, Dear Sir. Though, dental care or lack thereof, did not cause the Old Albion to hate LGBT peeps.
Okay, so the UK is ahead in gay rights — not that you don’t have a crazy religious sect, don’t be fooled — but your targeted outgroup is “damn immigrants,” “damn Arabs/Turks/brown people,” and “FUCK EUROPE.” The US is pretending to be post-race (a myth that seems to be dying out and the conversation restarted) and evangelicals focus on gay marriage because, well, they lost integration and most of them have the sense not to scream about black people. (Although there are exceptions….) England was bombed by Hitler and developed a neo-Nazi party: everyone is capable of extreme irrationality, falling in with groupthink, etc. One theory on the psychology of religious terrorism posits that people give up their identity as an individual to the “cosmic war” that they now see being fought everywhere, along with the perception that they’re losing unless extreme measures are taken.
Also, if we’re going to compare, let’s keep the variables equal: UK vs. US on religious fundamentalism. Given that y’all have been around as a nation-state a lot longer than the US, I think the historical record is going to show that your Christians are just as batshit as ours. It may have been socialised out of England over the past century, and particularly London, but, cough, Ireland, cough. You were no fans of Darwin back in the day.
US evangelical Christians are a particular strain of fucked up crazy, but pretending that it’s just US evangelicals is stupid and reductive. There are reasons why they exist, and why religion has such a hold on certain people, usually owing to structural factours (poverty, for one), social, community norms, etc. (Then there are the bigots with money, who tend to be the “baby boomer” generation and have an attitude of “fuck yours, I got mine” and really can’t be reasoned with, at least in my experience.) Moreover, studies show that we tend to inherit our political parties and beliefs from our parents, so the likelihood of anyone abruptly converting from one side to the other is always fairly low. The electoral system is completely fucked. This amendment was posturing to drive the base to the ballot and will undoubtedly be appealed, much like Prop 8 was, and be denied on constitutional challenges.
There was an interesting academic article I saw cited and actually dug up during the 2008 election about US-Euro relations — the US “right” (GOP/Republican) is further to the right of any Euro conservative party, even your embarrassment David Cameron. The gap between Europe and the US on political beliefs is relatively small once you take out the neo-conservatives in the US — meaning that (gulp) the US is just as good as you are… or you’re just as bad as most of the US. Make of it what you will. (For those with academic accounts, this is the article I was thinking of… God bless you, Slate, even when you’re insufferable: you do quote some good shit.)
WOW! Breathe Dear! ….
Let’s start
….Okay, so the UK is ahead in gay rights — not that you don’t have a crazy religious sect, don’t be fooled — but your targeted outgroup is “damn immigrants,” “damn Arabs/Turks/brown people,” and “FUCK EUROPE.” ….
we do not have any prominent religious sect unless you talk about the fundamentalist Muslims who propose Sharia Law and put all kinds on constrains to the local, liberal population with their beliefs. If anything, Britain is far more accepting than France where they banned the Burqa altogether. We do not target the immigrants but the way Britain is allowing people, mostly immigrants to abuse the extremely generous benefits system. I still don’t understand why Mr X with 4 wives and 16 kids needs to live in a £3Million Mansion in Kensington. Would you accept your government subsidizing my living by offering me a house free of charge in the UES of NYC if a boat washes out my butt in the Us and I ask for asylum? We have no issue with immigrant coming here to work and live and no sponge off the country.
….. England was bombed by Hitler and developed a neo-Nazi party: everyone is capable of extreme irrationality, falling in with groupthink, etc.
You must mean the British National Party is is rather small as far as I am aware. they do make a lot of fuss but they represent the 0.0001% of the British population.
It may have been socialised out of England over the past century, and particularly London, but, cough, Ireland, cough. …
Erm…. Ireland is not UK, though we do have a part of Nothern Ireland. Unless, I don’t understand your argument US is US, Canada is Canada, UK is UK, Ireland is Ireland.
I can’t open your article to understand in depth what you mean. I’m not polical science inclined, I am an engineer all I know is that took my sister’s gay wedding to her girlfriend for granded. Our government did not ask for my aproval when they legalise gay weddings and not a single person disagreed (well, unless you mean that tiny trolling minority tha read the Daily Mail)
P.S. David Cameron whilst conservative he has nothing to do with the far right or even the little bit right. And I am saying that as a Labour party supporter.
Apologies for the typos. it’s late in the day….
Explain all you want. You guys are still going to have to answer for Marmite…
I breathe fine, thanks. I just type 160 WPM.
we do not have any prominent religious sect unless you talk about the fundamentalist Muslims who propose Sharia Law and put all kinds on constrains to the local, liberal population with their beliefs.
Bingo. You also have (I have met them) plenty of Christians who believe that being gay is a sin. England’s Catholic base is small, sure, but they’re as loony as US Baptists. US Catholics, at least, seem to be overwhelmingly CEO Catholics who long ago stopped listening to the Vatican.
We do not target the immigrants but the way Britain is allowing people, mostly immigrants to abuse the extremely generous benefits system. I still don’t understand why Mr X with 4 wives and 16 kids needs to live in a £3Million Mansion in Kensington. Would you accept your government subsidizing my living by offering me a house free of charge in the UES of NYC if a boat washes out my butt in the Us and I ask for asylum? We have no issue with immigrant coming here to work and live and no sponge off the country.
Your benefits system does not work like that. Even I know that. You have a nice underclass of Polish workers (“Poland: Europe’s Mexico!”), and, as you’ve written here, a lot of fucked up beliefs about Muslim (brown) immigrants. England was where “paki” became a slur and you have plenty of footballers making homophobic and racist comments in the press. England is not some merry place of tolerance, peace, and tea. Hell, London isn’t. Also, I’m not sure when “at least we’re not France” became England’s motto (I thought that was a natural belief?); I disagree with the hajib (the burqa is a full-body garment; a hajib is a head-covering scarf) ban in France, as the only way a society can remain secular is by allowing for religious expression, paradoxically, but that’s neither here nor there.
You must mean the British National Party is is rather small as far as I am aware. they do make a lot of fuss but they represent the 0.0001% of the British population.
I’m not going to argue your statistics (I wasn’t talking about the BNP specifically but rather the entire underworld of hate groups in the UK, mostly the 70s-80s era), just point out that in your next paragraph you’re going to accuse me of conflating Britain, the UK, and England… and you just jumped from talking about England to Britain as a whole.
Erm…. Ireland is not UK, though we do have a part of Nothern Ireland. Unless, I don’t understand your argument US is US, Canada is Canada, UK is UK, Ireland is Ireland.
No, I’m saying that it’s hilarious to claim that the UK is somehow particularly tolerant or areligious when (1) the precursor to the UK broke with the Catholic church and slaughtered God knows how many people in the process; and (2) the UK itself is still in a protracted conflict — the Northern Ireland/Ireland divide. As for Canada, you’re making an argument to absurdity. No (reasonable) person considers Canada or Australia (with their own parliaments and PMs and everything!) to be part of the “United Kingdom” when talking about the UK’s domestic policy. The “overseas territories” (Australia, Canada, et al.) are not considered to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland — which gets reduced to “the United Kingdom,” and then “the UK.” If you can find me someone who says “I want to move to the UK” when they intend to move to Canada, Australia, or Gibraltar… I would agree to do something preposterous here, but let’s face it: you will never find such a person.
Your system of government allows for gay marriage under law without being put to a ballot. That’s awesome. That says nothing about the general intellectual or religious sentiment in London, England, the UK, and, just for kicks, the entire UK and its former empire. Because if we’re throwing Canada and Australia in now… ho, boy, the UK has a lot of crazy people in government. Harper’s on a quest to retract gay marriage, so let’s stick with the UK as defined by the majority: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. That’s what your government in London is responsible for, at any rate, and the only nations in which UK policy is binding.
I’m saying that within the UK, you have problems. You have Northern Ireland (which is a religious conflict — mock the baptists in the US all you like, but the UK became engaged in a religious war long before the US did); you have identity politics problems; you have classism and racism; and, ironically, you (general you, although also you specifically) harbour a great amount of pent up anger toward brown and Muslim immigrants… who are often immigrants from states from the former British Empire. The fact that the shah took power in Iran is due to the Iranian national uprising and desire to rid itself of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, in which the UK took majority profits… British intelligence spun this into a communist threat and presented it to the CIA… the CIA got involved in Iran in Operation Ajax… things backfired spectacularly and Iran is a mess. Pakistan, India: here’s looking at you, kid.
I’m glad London has gay marriage. You guys have an awesome pride parade, too! But neither London itself nor the whole of the UK is particularly tolerant, so mocking conservatives in the US just makes you look like a dolt. There are numerous cities and states in the US that have legalised gay marriage. That doesn’t mean anything except that they legalised gay marriage. Ditto yours. When the UK stops blaming “dirty Pakis” and spouting off about them living on the dole and how oh noes, they be stealin’ mai bukkit, Skype me. The UK is just as fucked up as the US; you simply express your hatred differently. In the US, some people beat on the Bible and attack gays because it’s no longer socially acceptable to be overtly racist in public (not that the US isn’t racist as all hell). In the UK, there’s… well… what can I say to someone who thinks immigrants with multiple wives live in mansions in Kensington. Or are you talking about Charles and Diana’s three-person marriage?
P.S. David Cameron whilst conservative he has nothing to do with the far right or even the little bit right. And I am saying that as a Labour party supporter.
I’m saying this as someone familiar with the man’s work: you’re empirically wrong.
Actually the UK doesn’t have gay marriage. It’s a civil partnership. Not the same. Similar but not a “marriage”.
David Cameron is a shit and as someone who lives in the UK and works with the underpriviliged, I can confirm that people don’t live well on benefits. Especially now that Cameron has anything to say about it.
UK is definately very racist – I can’t go anywhere without hearing comments about blacks/browns/immigrants but on the whole I’ve always felt very happy here.
I think the UK prefers to do most of its racist/classist grumblings behind closed doors and in the comments section of The Daily Mail. I’ve never worried about dogma and nationalism taking off in quite the same way in Blighty as I have witnessed in other countries. The UK has some fiery inhabitants, but on the whole the British find it hard to get themselves publically emotionally worked up (unless it’s for Princess Diana and Kate Middleton).
There’s a powerful trend in the UK of sympathy for the Underdog which you can see at work constantly, everywhere and which I think helps keep any excesses of zeal in place. Not prevent them from happening, simply prevent them from gathering significant public support.
You keep on bringing up stuff that happened 30-40 years ago, over 5 centuries ago!!!! Really? and things that happened over 5 centuries ago prove the point that Brits are bigoted?
You bring up the minority of Catholics to prove a point that Brits are bigoted nevermind the fact that Catholics in UK count for a small percentage? I think Church of England should be a clue I guess to to the predominant religion in the UK.
And I still do not understand why you call the Polish immigrant population underclass. I am offended on their behalf. Polish people are welcomed here because they came and worked! To be a Polish plumper, electrician or builder is sign of good craftmanship as their education and attention to detail is far better than what the UK market had to offer. Also, being part of the EU they cannot be illegal, the have every right to come and work here. Poland, the Mexico of Europe? I beg to differ dear. Regarding the word Paki, you go back quite a few years maybe over half a century but if today anyone used that term, the would be huge repercussions at least where I lived, obviously if you attend the BNP tea parties that term could be used. Same way if you hang around KKK BBQs, you’d hear other racial slurs. Again, what you mention is the minority and they do not represent the majority of the UK.
You say that I do not know how the British benefits system work but you don’t try to correct me? Can you explain to me where I am going wrong? On the same vein the rest of your argument is wrong.
I don’t know wth happened to the like button but EVERYTHING you said ..EVERYTHING… So, I’m a practicing Catholic. I VEHEMENTLY disagree with and ignore MANY of the Churches rules, regs and assorted other NOT WHAT JESUS SAID !!! proclamations. My aunt was/is a nun, my uncle a priest got monsignors and such in the family line…about as Irish American Catholic an upringing as you could get…AND yet..and yet…I knew so much of what was “taught” was straight up bullshit..In first grade !! Unbaptized babies are full of SIN? Go to “limbo” if they die? The whole everyone else is going STRAIGHT to hell and you too maybe if you don’t ..conform. My experiences with the clergy have been mainly overwhelmingly positive.
For a self professed Chrisian to come out and publicly support, rail against , vote against , any other group of PEOPLE while insufferably pulling the “Bible said so” card is ridiculous hate mongering bullshit. We all know that. THEY know that. Fundies DESPISE me becos I won’t get dragged into the OT defenses..am not Jewish, brah !! If any argument they come up with can be cancelled by..BUT..how is that compliant with LOVE EVERYBODY? I cancel it.
I suggest this blogger has not surrendered everything to her Lord as her pride, feelings of entitlement and decision to use the law to hurt a group of people remain.
I knew so much of what was “taught” was straight up bullshit..In first grade !! Unbaptized babies are full of SIN? Go to “limbo” if they die?
Wow! Same age, same dogma, same epiphany moment for me!
Jesus loves all the little Children (well only the ones who got their shit together and got baptised anyway, tough titties, slacker babies!):
The Catholic Church – doctrines so tenuous, seven year olds can poke holes in them. No wonder they came up with the Bible is the word of the Lord crock, it’s the theological equivalent of the parental “because I said so”.
Hi fiving ya !! I remember not being much more than 6 on my front porch feeling sorry for all the protestants who HAD to go ton hell cos they weren’t Catholic…with all the pity and confusion a 6 year old can muster..I KNEW that had to be unfair.
I have often said , used as a hashtag and tossed back as a rebuttal. “.I believe in the Church of Jesus SAID”…if Jesus didn’t SAY it ? Your argument is invalid…My adamant position that the Catholic Church needs to SELL everything and feed / heal/ minister to the poor..yeah..Jesus SAID…
Project Babies? STRAIGHT up money changer in the temple…and broadcasting her prayers on the street…STRAIGHT up…
I grew up in a kind of fundie community, and it alarms me to this day how many people REALLY ACTUALLY DO believe that Christians are oppressed and discriminated against. I believed this shit myself when I was really Goddy. (To my credit, I was really young and in the middle of nowhere before the Internet.) The scary thing is that people like Kristin have time and leisure to play with the Internet, AND the money to travel to other parts of the world, and they learn absolutely zero perspective from it. THAT’S scarier than simple ignorance.
By and large, these people don’t “love” gays and lesbians (and transfolk and atheists and evil godless pro-choice libruls, etc) at all. Oh, they make pitying and condescending noises, sure, but deep down, they mostly feel affronted that there exist decent and upstanding people whose moral compass isn’t based on a disparate collection of Bronze Age sky-god tales.
Oh, well. What’s the over/under on how many of her kids will one day rebel and become godless librurl atheists?
I also grew up Goddy and the emphasis on how I would have to FIGHT the WAR on my beliefs was astonishing. Making religion a public, political cause rather than focusing on your own personal relationship with God was what put me off church. Plus, you know, college/alcohol/getting out of my bubble of privilege, like any self respecting 19 year old.
My only consolation is if NO ONE I know who grew up like I did is still so hateful. My siblings are just as liberal as I am, if not more. It’s just our parents – and a few remaining Kristins – who would vote for Amendment 1. Once the olds die out we gay-lovers will be the majority.
I wish that were true. I also grew up ‘Goddy” as you say. I’m still Christian (but not fundamentalist or evangelical.) College was the best thing that ever happened to me as I saw the broader world for the first time. Unfortunately, that is not the case for everyone. My brother went to the same college as me and he is more fundamentalist than ever and I know a lot of young people who are uber religious right as well. It makes me sad for the future. Religion has no place in the voting booth or the legislative halls.
My mother in law (and most others in my neck o’ the woods) firmly believes that Christians are oppressed. Most of this, she thinks, is because of ZOMG OBAMA!!! She is just waiting on the day for Obama to open up a big lion pit for all the poor, oppressed Christians. If that happened, that would make her LIFE.
She also has two kids. One kid went to Jerry Falwell’s university and baptized his wife when they got married (and it was just as weird as it sounds). The other one is my lovely husband: an agnostic with a degree from Berkeley. So yeah, the librurls will come!
oh boy did you pick the right brother!
He can make crepes like the business, so yeah, he’s alright. :-)
I have no idea why, but I snorted loudly when you mentioned your brother-in-law going to Jerry Falwell’s university and him baptizing his wife.
He and his missus must be a treat to converse with.
Orly Taitz has kids?!
I am always surprised to hear Christians say that they are oppressed around the world. Really? Can you tell me where? Because this is news to me!!
Didn’t you know they still secretly feed Fundies to lions in many parts of the world?
There’s a difference between religious fundamentalists believing they are oppressed because the government does not firmly back everything they believe, and Christians being oppressed and being killed around the world. I know it’s hard to believe that it happens, but it does. This is not to say that it is ONLY Christians being persecuted, but it does happen.
I work with Christians in Mexico, and have a lot of friends down there. A pastor’s wife I know told me how her relatives in a southern Mexico state are consistently persecuted – having to hold secret church lest someone find them out. She showed me a video that her relatives took of a fellow Christian being burned alive. Oppressed? Persecuted? Yes.
Unfortunately that is not the same persecution that American Christians seem to believe they’re suffering through.
Well there goes my summer vacation plans. I don’t want to get burned alive in Mexico while my friends videotape it.
My ex’s family is Eastern Orthodox and was repressed in Iraq so a lot of them fled after Saddam came to power. Or something like that. I don’t think life was great for anyone of any religion.
I think that has more to do with living in a country with a crazy dictator than religion…but I can see how being a Christian didn’t make it any easier!
Yeah he was an equal ops hater. Ask the Kurds.
Lol @ Keevz
China (no religion allowed, but there are a number of churches that send missionaries at their own risk to do the work of the Lord… ho, boy); Soviet Russia (insert “in Soviet Russia” joke here) and the other Soviet Socialist Republics; the Middle East (there are now more native Lebanese living outside of Lebanon than inside since, in all but name, Lebandon was annexed by Syria and became the home of Hezbollah, despite once being an Arab Christian state; I don’t have numbers on hand but given that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., all have declared state religions, you’d probably want to keep quiet if Christian).
I hesitate to use the word “oppressed,” as Christians are sometimes putting themselves in danger (e.g., missionary work in China) or are not being specifically targeted for oppression, just being smothered in a totalitarian state that’s good for no one. Syria is ruled by a minority religious group that keeps firm control over everyone. Lebanon’s diaspora was less “FUCK THE CHRISTIANS” than it was collateral damage in the conflict between various terrorist groups and/or states that refuse to recognise Israel’s right to exist and Israel. Soviet Russia was bad for everyone. Stalin sent the majority of the Chechen population to the GULAG as he thought they were Nazi collaborators (well, that was the excuse) — the majority of the Chechen population now was born in Siberia. (No, that didn’t backfire at all….) Christians also have a large network of support and chances to gain amnesty in Christian-friendly countries, so calling it “oppression” is … diminishing the meaning of the word.
Then again, there was just an article about a Christian in England who cried oppression because she wasn’t allowed to wear a highly visible crucifix while working her government job. (You can wear a religious item so long as it’s not deliberately visible, thereby announcing to all members of the public that you may have personal biases! Hmm….) Christians can be a minority group being persecuted by a particular state but saying Christians are “oppressed around the world” is pretty fucking hilarious. Uh, there are plenty of places where Christians are doing just fine… and happily oppressing Jews, PoC, Muslims, gay people, trans people, people with disabilities, etc.
” The United States was founded by Christians. Not Muslims, or Buddhists, or atheists, or any other religion. And honestly? People don’t like that. They want God and any mention of Him OUT.”
O RLLY?!!! I cannot EVEN with people like this who quote the history of this country without being even vaguely familiar with THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY?!
Separation of church and state. One of the founding principals of this country as well. Ur doin it wrong.
Here in NC, my polling place is actually inside an Fundamental Baptist church. Separation of church and what-now?
When I went to vote in the caucus for the first time in 2008, it was also held in a big ol’ Baptist church. However, the Democrat line was around the block, which I took to be a good sign.
I know! She could start by reading some James Madison or Jefferson or whatever.
It makes me so sad when I hear this. I immediately think of Thomas Jefferson. The AUTHOR of the bill of rights was not actually a Christian. He was a deist.
exactly! Along with the majority of other “founding fathers.”
Not just separation of church and state, the constitution was written to protect minority interests. Explicitly. Almost all of our founders arrived here because they were part of persecuted religious groups in their home countries (or at least that’s a strong part of the tradition). But now, suddenly, we’re supposed to be a god-fearing, Christian nation? This is why the MAJORITY should not be able to vote to change issues that affect MINORITY interests – because they are not going to protect these interests. By definition. And our nation exists precisely because these minorities found haven in America. Ugh.
The American Taliban is incapable of understanding that rights aren’t granted by majority vote. How many bigots used the bible to justify racism and oppose the civil rights movement? They’re doing the same damn thing now and I suspect a good number of them would happily go back to Jim Crow days.
I was in Northern Florida for the weekend and actually heard someone use the term “those colored girls” I about died, Who the fuck talks like that anymore? Racism is alive and well, sadly.
1. Jim Crow is already here. Felons lose the right to vote and the overwhelming majority are black men, thanks to the war on drugs.
2. The root meaning of the letters that structure taliban is “to learn.” Talib, taliba: student. Taliban: students. Calling anyone the “x” taliban always ends in spectacular irony.
Jim Crow never fuckin’ left as far as I’m concerned
People like this bother me. I’m freaking Catholic and this isn’t how I want people to look at ‘religious people’. The point is, when it comes to basic human rights (like the right to get married), my personal opinion (which is actually totally fine with gay marriage) doesn’t matter. If I claim to be for equality for everyone I cannot stand against something as basic as the right to marry who you want. You can think whatever you want about anyone but to truly support the constitution I don’t think you can be against it.
Has this lady ever heard of the separation between church and state. It’s not like they are ordering her to go out and get a gay marriage. I don’t really get the whole ‘suppressed’ thing. Once a so called friend told me she thought “I worshiped Mary and was going to Hell” for being Catholic. I told her I hoped they had s’mores. People need to stop being so freaking sensitive.
I’m pretty sure the God I learned about in catechism wanted everyone to be treated equally. So her point of doing what God and Jesus wanted? Yeah, she’s doing it wrong.
Anytime someone invokes Jesus, you know they’re about to unleash a stupid statement dance mix.
What’s the over/under on any of those people ever realising that Jesus was an Arab and a Jew?
What the hell happened to the “like” button?
Stupid statement dance mix!! Amazing! Also, further to your above comment – I did Arabic at uni and you’re 100% right about the root meaning of Taliban. I was pretty excited when I learnt that :)